Reading this insightful interview with Taner Akcam, I was struck by the similarities between the overtly pervasiveness of genocide denial in Turkey, amongst both the government and the population at large; and the genocide denial that still occurs in the Americas over the genocide of the native populations from the time of the Conquistadors to the 20th Century forcible transfer of the Native American children from their tribal lands into institutions.
In both situations, the nation-state that arose is linked to the genocide of the minority population. The democratic Turkish republic was established by the same political party that oversaw the genocide. In the United States, "manifest destiny" which is synonymous with US physical expansion, as well as political and economic expansion, came at the expense of the Native American tribes living on the land; who were either killed; driven into exile or culturally annihilated by being forced to assimilate into the larger dominant Protestant-Anglo culture.
As an American, knowing that some officials in my government committed genocide (even if it was "my " government from decades, even centuries before my birth) is not easy; and I'm sure that there are probably many Americans (and perhaps Europeans as well) who contend, despite the evidence to the contrary that the native populations of the Americas were not subjected to a genocide. Just as there are many Turks who contend there was no genocide of the Armenians.
Nevertheless, denying these atrocities, or at the very least; not willing to study them, serves not only to victimize the victims all over again; but in the end, it hurts the entire society at large. Recognizing the genocide against the native populations in the United States, and the Americas at large does not make me "anti-American" nor, does recognition by someone in Turkey of the genocide perpetrated against the Armenians make him a "traitor" or "anti Turk." In fact, truth be told, that person probably is much more patriotic, in the purist sense of the word; that the nationalists who respond with denial in an attempt to "protect the country."
Furthermore, an important aspect of understanding the genocide is not only understanding the perpetrators and the victims; but those who stood up against the horrors. In Turkey, as Akcam explains in his interview, there were those who who tried to stand up against the government and protested the massacres of their Armenian friends and neighbors. Surely, they too deserve to be recognized; as it seems to me, that they embody a truer sense of patriotism than the thugs who violently attack those seeking to tell the truth ever could.
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My view of Turkey is very positive due to their secularism and embracement of democracy. Turkey has been a great friend of Bosnian people and their commitment to western values is not questionable. They have traditionally been alies of Bosnian people, as well as western powers. Their place is in Europe, both politically and geographicaly.
It is not up to Turkey to acknowledge Armenian genocide, just as it was not up to Serbia to acknowledge Srebrenica genocide. It's up to the international courts to have their final say.
I propose this matter be brought in front of international judges and make them decide whether armed conflict that happened decades ago amounted to genocide.
In World War 2, over 100,000 Bosniaks were killed by both Nazi's and Serbian chetniks (around 10% of our population). This has never been acknowledged as genocide.
Tens of thousands of Bosniaks suffered in Jasenovac concentration camp - this has not been acknowledged in Yugoslav historic sources (books and primary investigative state sources were hidden from public, so Yugoslav government could promote Serbs as the main victims).
I strongly suggest reading "Bosnjaci u Jasenovackom Logoru" (Bosniaks in Jasenovac Concentration Camp) http://www.interliber.com/catlistdetail.asp?SID=Interliber^57473-57473&ProductID=30790&ml=b .
As I said, let the international judges rule whether Turkey committed genocide.
As far as I am concerned, I am not the expert on this issue. The only thing I can say with confidence is that we have ongoing genocide in Sudan which is being committed by Arab militia (however, the U.N. does not acknowledge it as Genocide and calls it "massacres" instead. Why? Becaue UN does not want to take any more responsibilities for genocides. UN is incapable of doing it's primary purpose of prevention of armed conflicts and genocides)...
I guess we will just have to diagree on this issue then.
Yes, from a legal perspective it is important to have a legal ruling confirming genocide. However, it is important to note that at the time of the Armenian genocide, the term genocide, as both a word and a legal term, did not exist. "Race Murder" was how the NYT described the carnage. Even taking into consideration the lack of technology of the times, the newspapers, based on reports by human rights activists and Missionaries as well as foreign government officials at at least one journalist did a thorough job of documenting the calculated plan of atrocities perpetrated against the Armenians.
Akcam's book does a masterful job at looking at the government's planned campaign against he Armenians.
While the legal term genocide did not exist at the time-so no one could be put on trial for "genocide" there was an attempt to try the perpetrators of the atrocities. Which seem to show that there was a widespread recognition that massive atrocities and gross violations occured.
Raphael Lemkin who coined the term genocide after WWII, and whose book "Axis Rule" gives a very thorough definition of the crime; and whose writing is at the basis of the UN convention to prevent genocide and the legal definition of genocide used by the ICTY and ICTR today, acknowledges what happened to the Armenians in Turkey amounted to a genocide.
Secondly, the term, "armed conclict" is a misnomer. "Armed conflict" has been used by those choosing to deny or minimize the genocide by claiming that the atrocties were just a "natural" reaction and occurance in a "civil war" where both parties bear equal blame for the carnage. For those of us familiar with Bosnian genocide denial, the above claim must seem depressignly familiar.
Finally it might sound like a "fluffy" statement; I honestly believe that genocide denial not only victimizes the Armenians all over again; it also hurts the Turkish people at large. Voices like Taner Akcam are truly heroic.
It is quite obvious that this one sided view will be sponsored all over the United States. Although Turkey has asked for the Armenian Government to open up their historical archives to look at the historical proofs they keep refusing to do so. Turkey has opened up their historical archives however years ago. Who is trying to hide somethign here? Also if the question of human rights will be an issue one should look at the track record of the Armenian Government. All the terrorist activities that are still going on this day and their own genocide against the Armenians that are currently taking place.
I am a Christian Turk. My family is half Greek half Italian decent. My family is living proof that there has never been any mistreatment towards Christians in Turkey. Armenians have held and still continue to do so the most prestigious, highest paying jobs, Jews were welcomed into the country after the inquisitions in Spain. This is merely an act by the Armenians to get money from the Turkish Government. Armenia is a poor country and instead of chasing a false tale they should work on their relationships with Turkey and open the trade doors. Turkey will not benefit from this but they certainly will. Please also note that if there was the genocide and ethnic cleansing as they claim to be:
Why is the leader of the Armenian Church (Patriarch) still located in Turkey?
Why is people like Mr. Garo Mafyan an Armenian businessman and many other are some of the most influential and respected people in Turkey?
Why are none of the churches destroyed in Turkey?
And after answering these try to answer this question, why are people getting abused in Armenia if they do not belong to do Armenian Church? Why are several hundred Azeris being killed in Armenia and the borders and even in their own country by Armenians everyday?
Why is there never an open forum?
Although Turks want to sit in on a mutual discussion forum, why are the Armenian's always refusing to do so. And they are being vocal only when there is no opposition agains them?
Why are they campaigning so hard and trying to make sure that the flip side of the coin, and the actual truth is never heard?
When all of these get answered, then let people make their decision after getting all the information!!!!
There is not a single Armenian in Turkey that complains. That supports the idea of genocide. And most importantly there is not a single Armenian in Turkey that would rather live in Armenia! That is quite interesting.
'We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920.' (Agop Zahoryan)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian)
Read on:
Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner, February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.
"They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their retreat from Marash."
Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40,
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.
"They [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
-----------------
Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:
"There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age, children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.
A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle, instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers, the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.
An Armenian contractor at the alaca Communication zone command
narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:
The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were
released when they learnt that I understood what was going on.
Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered on the streets."
----------------
And, Sir no-Excuse, do care to speculate on this?
Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.)
ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES.
The spiralling violence gripping the outer republics of the former
Soviet Union gained new impetus yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh. Survivors reported that Armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more than 450 Azeris, many of them women and children, who were fleeing an attack on their town. Hundreds, possibly thousands, were missing and
feared dead. The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children. They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees. The few survivors later described what happened:" That's when
the real slaughter began," said Azer Hajiev, one of three soldiers to survive. "The Armenians just shot and shot. And then they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives."
" They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed in front of her. Her daughter was still missing. One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.
The survivors said 2000 others, some of whom had fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their wounds or the cold. By late yesterday, 479 deaths had been registered at the morgue in Agdam's morgue, and 29 bodies had been buried in the cemetery. Of the seven corpses I saw awaiting burial, two were children and three were women, one shot through the chest at point blank range. Agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror. Doctors said they had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep stab wounds.
Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city which has a population of 150,000, destroying several buildings and killing one person.
Before making a conlcusion one has to question the reality and look to evidence. How much have you read about this issue so that you can judge the Turkish people for being in denial?
Have you ever heard a real Turkish historian, who would definitely tell you the truth instead of the made up stories that are the results of the 40-year efforts of the Armeian diaspora?
It is a known fact that any research cannot be based on a single source, but these So-Called -Genocide stories funnily are all from a single source,from the Armenian scholars and their supporters.
First of all Taner Akcam himself is not a credible historian. He has a dark background including working together with terrorist groups,escape from prison and Turkey. After he started to act like a historian and accept that a genocide took place he is popularized by his Armenian supporters. Contradictingly the voice of real sholars and (real)historians who show all the evidence and documents that point to the equal sufferings of the people in Turkey caused by the Armenian rebells during WW1 are never acknowledged. Insted they receive dead treats and some are even killed.
The Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire for many many years.If the Turks had an intention to clear the country from them why would they waited for so long and do it during their weakest years when they were surrounded by enemies all around. The Armenians caught the country in a weak position and when all the men were in war they started to attack villages, kill the women and children with an intention to gain the land for themselves. Today you can find the mass graves of thousands of Turkish people killed and burned by the Armenian rebels. However the so-called genocide claimers never acknoledge these events. They deny that the Armenians were aremed and prefer to play the victims and take advantage of people`s sensitivity.
People are never guilty until they are charged so, and the court listens to both sides. Today Turkey is being put in a position where telling the truth is shown as a denial, the evidence and documents are ignored, only the voices of the Armenians are heard.
This is the real tragedy.
Hi "john".
You said: "My family is living proof that there has never been any mistreatment towards Christians in Turkey."
I know. As I said, let international judges rule.
Hi Shaina.
You said: "I guess we will just have to diagree on this issue then.... Secondly, the term, 'armed conclict' is a misnomer. 'Armed conflict' has been used by those choosing to deny or minimize the genocide by claiming that the atrocties were just a 'natural' reaction and occurance in a 'civil war' where both parties bear equal blame for the carnage."
So basically, you politely imply that I am genocide denier, even though I have stated my position that until international judges rule on this issue, we simply cannot accept allegations at face value.
And as "john", pointed out - Armenians have been involved into large scale massacres against Turskish civilians. Whether these allegations are true or false, it's not up to me or you to decide. We need international rulling on this matter.
I am not saying it didn't happen. All I am saying is that I see no single international judgment confirming it.
Turkey is certainly not a genocidal state. They rulled Balkans for centuries and if they wanted, they could have killed all Christians. But in fact, they gave freedom to Christians and protected them. Of course, Serbian historic mythology will tell you otherwise. The fact that Turkey treated Christians nicely can be found in the fact that Serbs and Croats are still in huge numbers in the Balkans. If Turkey wanted to get rid off them, then Bosniaks would have an opportunity to live in a larger state, as opposed to small stretch of land called "Federation."
Armenia is a state with official religion, they endorse religion and religion is pretty much part of their government politics. Turkey is secular, modern, democratic state. Please understand that these outrageous allegations should be first proven in the court.
Imagine me talking about Srebrenica Genocide without international court's judgment confirming it. Would it make any sense? Not much.
Death and misery befell on all subjects of the Ottoman Empire at the throes of war through killings, disease,
starvation, elements, etc. regardless of ethnicity, religion, age or gender. The number of deaths
and refugees among Muslims in Eastern Anatolia between 1914 and 1921 is estimated at
1,190,000 and 900,000, respectively7,8 (Page 13). Most of these souls were killed by Armenian
guerillas, for the only reason that they were Muslim. Yet, the Turks never claimed Genocide, nor
have these deaths ever been mourned in the West. The aim of these Russian-supported and
Western-approved massacres was to create an Armenian majority through ethnic cleansing of
Muslims in the “Historic Armenian Homeland” (a vaguely defined territory reaching “from sea to
sea”, which was neither historic, nor Armenian, nor home to anybody but Turks since the turn of
the second millennium).
"Anonymous" said:
"The Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire for many many years.If the Turks had an intention to clear the country from them why would they waited for so long and do it during their weakest years when they were surrounded by enemies all around. "
Exactly. If they wanted to get rid of Christians, they could have done it. But instead of getting rid off them, Turkey protected them. And then those same Christians - instead of saying thanks - they committed numeour Genocides against Bosniaks in the Balkans.
Look how big price we paid in the Balkans - those Christians stole our land and ethnically cleansed us. We treated them well in Ottoman Empire and they committed genocides against us.
And now they accuse Turkey of Genocide.
It just does not make any bloody sense. If Turkey wanted to get rid off them, Turke could have done that. But in fact, Turkey protected them and Christians thanked us by slaughtering us.
It's not fair. I am not denying Armenian genocide, but their story just doesn't make any bloody sense. And their leader (forgot his name) was a terrorist in the US, I watched it on ABC's 20/20. He is in prison.
Anonymous said: "The number of deaths
and refugees among Muslims in Eastern Anatolia between 1914 and 1921 is estimated at
1,190,000 and 900,000, respectively. Most of these souls were killed by Armenian
guerillas, for the only reason that they were Muslim. Yet, the Turks never claimed Genocide, nor
have these deaths ever been mourned in the West."
Why doesn't Turkey asks Armenians to recognize they committed genocide against Turks?
Why don't you open a blog and promote genocide against Turks?
Please do so.
Armenian allegations do not make any bloody sense. Think with your brain people. If Turkey wanted to get rid of Christians they could have done it in Ottoman Empire, but they protected them.
I am definitely not buying this "genocide against armenians" story until international judges confirm it in their rulling.
Their allegations are outrageous against our ally, and their leaders are Christian Orthodox Terrorists.
Why don't you create a blog right now and promote what Armenians did to Turks?
Taner Akcam is in a group of perhaps 4 maybe a couple more who make these alleged claims of Denial and the So-called Genocide.
However, there are well over 300 International Historians from all over the world, including historians from the Middle East Department of Princeton University here that signed a certified decree that no Genocide occurred.
So, I propose a debate on this matter where historians can debate the issue whether a Genocide occurred or not. I would also like to see Taner Akcam sit on this debate with verifiable facts and evidence.
I believe every individual has a right to believe in whatever they want to believe in. Even the right to believe in a historical event, to their choosing. However, passing judgement without seeing all sides of a multi dimensional reality, prior to judgement is living in world defined only under one dimension and that the world is still flat.
"Anonymous", I wish you used a name (any name) so I can feel more comfortable debating this issue. It's 12:56 AM, I have been researching this issue for quite some time today and there is no valid concensus that genocide happened. Some countries and agencies recognize it, most don't.
Based on wikipedia's article, there are some high level agencies that recognize this as genocide, and they are:
"International bodies that recognize the Armenian genocide include the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, the United Nations Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities[74], the International Center for Transitional Justice, based on a report prepared for TARC, the International Association of Genocide Scholars[75], the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, the World Council of Churches, the self-declared unofficial Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile[76], and the Permanent Peoples' Tribunal."
Now, there was also a controversy: "On May 19, 1985, a total of 63 scholars from various American universities sent a letter to the U.S. House of Representatives opposing the House Joint Resolution 192 which defines the events of 1915 as genocide... Although there has been much academic recognition of the Armenian Genocide, this has not always been followed by governments and media. Many governments, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Israel, Ukraine, and Georgia, do not officially use the word genocide to describe these events. Although there is no federal recognition of the Armenian Genocide, 39 of the 50 U.S. states recognize the events of 1915 to 1917 as genocide."
Now, there was no international rulling on this, so I don't know what to think anymore. Armenians are Orthodox Christians, same as Serbs, and I am always careful with these types of people and their claims.
However, a picture of starving children really forces my mind to accept this as genocide http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d6/Armeniangenocide_starvedchildren.JPG .
It is my understanding that both Turkish and Armenian children were starving due to lack of food, etc...
Could it be that we are having a case of two genocides - one with Turks against Armenians and the other with Armenians against Turks?
This is trully horrible.
I don't know what to say.
What is the concensus regarding Armenian and Turkish victims with respect to numbers? Is there any concensus?
In Srebrenica, we had to prove identities of each and every individual by submitting his ID, fathers name, address, etc. There is no such tedious documentation for Holocaust victims, and other genocide victims.
It seems to me that we - Bosniaks -had to prove each and every statement we made, while others freely claim 300,000 to 1.5 million dead without any freaking documentation. That's what pisses me off.
But that, of course, does not mean that I am denying other people's suffering. It's just that international community used double standard against my people with all those requirements without giving us benefit of the doubt.
"Anonymous" - do you accept that Genocide happened in Srebrenica?
Daniel,
You asked for census data:
The Armenians claim that there are 1.5 million victioms of the so called genocide. However the census by the Ottoman Empire shows that in the whole country (not only the East regions which was the place of deportation ) there were less than 1.250 million Armenians. How can the number of deads outnumber the people that existed before the events? Also many of the Armenians have survived after the war. There are still many Armenians in Turkey and they face no discrimination. How many Turks are there today in Armenia ? NONE!!
As for the picture I agree it is heart breaking. But how real is it? There are many pictures that show the sufferings of the Muslims, one such:
http://www.atukad.org.tr/fotogaleri1.asp
The only think is that these pictures and the Turkish side is not so commonly heard and published since the Turks have not put their hearts and souls to this issue, wheras it is the basic reasons for existance for the Armenians to prove that such a genocide did happen. They also resort to falsifying documents (as they did with the Talat Pasha letters) playing with pictures (one such a fotomontage picture showing Ataturk with a dead body of a little child, however in the real picture there is a cat (living) instead of the child and the dead child body is taken from another picture that belongs somewhere else, many pictures in wikipedia are such)
Unfortunately the Wikipedia site, is based on such FALSIFIED documents and pictures. What makes me laugh is that they even show some so-called concentration camps to make the story similar to the WW2 genocide. So the Turks in the middle of a war, in which they could not even provide clothing or food for their solders, spend so much time and effort to build concentartion camps to burn, poison, drawn and get rid of the Armenian poplation becuase they were so stupid to think doing that before.
But when you use a search engine like google, what comes first? Wikipedia and here you go, thousands of people start to believe that a genocide did happen. As you know wikipedia is written by the public but you cannot change that site which raises many questions. Every day the Armenian people are building new sites, writing even more saddening stories telling their sufferings and they spends millions on dollars to promote this genocide compaign. Whereas Turkey has many issues to deal with. The Turkish governmnet always calls for a resolution with the historians which is always refused by the Armenians. All the archives of the Ottoman Empire are open to public and so are the mass graves wher you can find many dead Turks and Muslims, but none of these evidence is mentioned in those Armenian sponsored websites. They even put death treats when a film about Turkey will be put on stage, yet be a debate over the genocide.
The saddening think is that the governments of other countries think they will bring pece by accepting a 100 years past false genocide (as a reult of politiccal concerns), but ignore the ethical dilemma that is happening today.
Just as you said how fair is it that the Bosnians had to provide so much evidene, altough the incidence was in front of everybody`s eyes, while for the Armenian`s some heart breaking stories and pictures and madeup documents are suffice.
Some websites for you as a refernce:
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html
http://portal.turkishpac.org/content/category/4/13/35/
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/
Unfortunately there are mnay more web sites but not in English.
The population data is below:
Look how exxegerated are the numbers by the Armenian souces. It is impossible for there be a 1.5 million population in total leave alone those who are claimed to be killed.
Claimed Armenian
Population
1. The Armenian author Leart, based on figures
provided by the Patriarchate of Istanbul 2,560,000
2. The Armenian historian Basmajian 2,380,000
3. The Armenian National Committee at the Paris Peace Conference 2,250,000
4. The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan 1,800,000
5. The French Yellow Book 1,555,000
6. Encyclopedia Britannica 1,500,000
7. Constenson 1,400,000
8. Lynch 1,345,000
9. Official Ottoman census statistics for 1914 1,295,000
10. Annual Register (London) 1,056,000
Recent investigation by Turkish scholars show that, not only the loss of Armenian lives were much less than the figures that the propagandists endeavour to get accepted, but also deaths caused by famine, sickness, contagious diseases, severe climatic conditions and actual combat are high and do probably constitute an overwhelming majority. To assert that deaths were also caused by reasons enumerated above is not propaganda, but mere realism in view of the fact that the Turks have lost several millions due to the same. The Armenians were living under similar war conditions and suffered accordingly.
A Turkish Army of 90,000 soldiers froze to death in the Eastern Front and perished before the chance to fight the enemy.
Just after the WW1, the Turks had lost 467,000 soldiers due to sickness and epidemics.
It is expressing the actual to state that climate and epidemics caused by cholera, typhus, typhoid fever, small pox and the like have hit the Armenian population just as severely as they affected the Turks. It should also be born in mind, while assessing the ratio of the Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire before and after the WW1, that this people within the short period of 8 years between 1914 and 1922 participated in 11 conventional and civil wars, in which they inflicted damages on their adversaries and suffered in return. To account the Turks also for the Armenian losses incurred fighting the Turks or others is neither impartial, nor accurate.
Bogos Nubar Pasha, the head of the Armenian Delegation to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, accepts in an official memorandum addressed to the French Foreign that between 6 to 7 hundred thousand Armenians were deplaced and 390,000 had reached their destinations in Aleppo, Baghdad, Palestine or elsewhere. The great majority of the remainder, the exact figure of which cannot be ascertained, has lost their lives on account of sickness, epidemics, lack of proper nourishment and climatic conditions that touched all. It is another neglected but important fact that many thousands of Turks were also killed by regular Armenian troops or irregular bands.
The total death of Muslims only in Anatolia in the period 1912-21 is 2.736 million.
@ daniel, I'm glad you put this link, the only Jasenovac link I personally have seen with the lists of names has many many Muslim names of victims of Jasenovac, but classed them as Roma! Of course many Roma are Muslim too, but not all Muslims dead at Jasenovac were Roma OBVIOUSLY. I am glad to have an alternate Jasenovac source. Again many t hanks!
Yes Turkey has been a staunch ally of Bosnia, and that is a good thing, Bosnia and indeed all of the Balkans has a lot of Turkish cultural influence, everything from architecture, customs, cuisine, (although cuisine of Turkey has had influences from the Balkans they refer in Turkey to the cuisine of Rumelija!) music, art.
You are right about the U.N. and Sudan. The situation in Sudan has really been ongoing for a very long time.
@ Shaina As a person born and raised in the U.S. and as a person who has 1/8 Anishanabe (Chippawa/Ojibaway)ancestry on my mother's side, I can tell you that cultural suppression and racial suppression of Native people is very much a fact of life.
I think if a population is reduced from 100% of the people of a land to something like 3% in a period of just over 500 years it's genocide. Most Americans if you push them will admit that the American people and governmetn committed a genocide. I think coming down to it, most Turks can't consider what happened with Armenians right, or with Kurds for that matter. I think that the law about respecting Turkishness makes it harder for them to discuss it, much as there is informal but strong public pressure in the U.S. not to discuss the genocide of Native peoples.
Hi Anonymous, you said:
"The Armenians claim that there are 1.5 million victioms of the so called genocide. However the census by the Ottoman Empire shows that in the whole country (not only the East regions which was the place of deportation ) there were less than 1.250 million Armenians. How can the number of deads outnumber the people that existed before the events?"
I don't even know what to think anymore. I am very confused. I will have to withdraw my support for the term "Armenian Genocide" until this historical even is sorted out impartially or with a help of international court or UN sponsored investigation.
You also stated: "As for the picture I agree it is heart breaking. But how real is it? There are many pictures that show the sufferings of the Muslims, one such:
http://www.atukad.org.tr/fotogaleri1.asp"
Yes, true. As I said, I wish international judges would look into this matter. I can't accept things at face value with regards to claims that Turkish people committed genoicide against Armenians.
You forgot to answer my question - do you acknowledge that the Srebrenica Massacre was a Genocide?
yakima_gulag said:
"I think if a population is reduced from 100% of the people of a land to something like 3% in a period of just over 500 years it's genocide."
Well, population of Banja Luka was reduced to 3% of Bosniaks... I am not sure what is the current percentage of Bosniaks in Republika Srpska. It was probably reduced from roughly 50% of prewar population to about 5%? Who knows. However, the international judges ruled that genocide occured only in Srebrenica.
Thanks for the stats on the Native American populations. I just got a book from the library by Ward Churchill which made me interested in the topic of the genocide committed against the native population.
I remember how all throughout elementary school we got a very much a whitewashed view of US history; no mention of any atrocities committed against the natives; Colombus as a hero. It wasn't just because of our age and the school believing that we were too young to deal with such a tough topic. My elementary school had a very intensive and very thorough Holocaust Unit and a units on American slavery as well. And during the WWII unit we even discussion the camps used to hold Japanese-Americans on the West Coast. So, it wasn't as if there was a refusal to deal with atrocities and crimes committed by Americans; just for some reason; the crimes committed against the Native Americans were very much glossed over.
In middle school and high school we recieved more information and education regarding the policy towards the Native Americans; such as using small pox on blankets in order to wipe out tribes; the trail of tears, various Indian removal acts, etc.
However, looking back, I still feel uneducated about that time in my country's history.
Hi Shaina,
In Canada, there is a great deal of respect for native people and the suffering they went through. There is no justification for cultural genocide that Christian Church (and White settlers) committed against Native Indian population of Canada. This chapter of history is well recognized in Canadian educational books.
In the USA, there is thousands of cowboy movies who portray natives as savages who attack whites, etc, so average American thinks that Native Indians were to blame for attacks on white settlers back in the times.
Daniel,as for your question:
Before making a judgement I feel that I should look to both sides of the story and find evidence.Only then I can make a judgement otherwise it would be a prejiduce.
I cannot say I am well educated on the details but the events in Srebrenica happened infront of our eyes, we all witnessed how thousands of people were being killed while the international community kept silence on the misery going on there. I remember asking to myself why nobody was doing anything since this was nothing but an ethnic cleansing.
However UN decided that it was not a genocide and balmed a couple of generals. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/26/serbia.warcrimes.ap/index.html
I see that any justice system is vulnerable to human weaknesses based on greed,power and dishonesty.
Even if the UN decide it was a genocide it would not bring those lives back.So I think the whole international politics on this issue is corrupt.Why do we have those courts after everything happens instead of prevention at first place?
Why did not the governments claiming they are democratic and anti-genocide do anything to prevent the events? Why did not France start international action to prevent this mass killing that happened in the 21st cc.Instead France outlaws the denial of a so-called Armenian genocide that happened 100 years ago. These make me think that it is all politics and self-interest not humanity that is the guiding force of the countries.
yakima_gulag, you said:
"I think coming down to it, most Turks can't consider what happened with Armenians right, or with Kurds for that matter"
when considering right or wrong how do you base your arguments?For your reasoning to be RIGHT you should have also read and listened to the arguments of the Turkish people and you should have seen evidence(not the falsified ones by the Armenian propoganda created for 40 years)
The Turkish people reject the genocide because they have read the Ottoman archives,they have seen the mass graves of the Turkish corpses and they are the ones whose relatives have died or witnessed the events in the 1915`s.They are the ones who want this issue to be resolved, but in an open and democratic environment,where no politics and propoganda(no money) is involved.They are the ones whose call to Armenians for a joint discussion involving historians is always rejected.They are the ones who are making their judgement not based on hatered (as the Armenians, whose hate to Turks planted since childhood blocks thir objectivity)but with double tought and empathy.
"I think that the law about respecting Turkishness makes it harder for them to discuss it, much as there is informal but strong public pressure in the U.S. not to discuss the genocide of Native peoples."
The law does not prevent anyone to think, to read, or to discuss.I have never witnessed any public pressure. These are all the products of the anti-Turkish image that is being tried to be created in the last years. The groups who do that are obvious,the Kurds who want seperation,the Armenians who want the acceptance of a so called genocide and the anti-muslim countries that do not like Turkey becuase of its historial ties with the Ottoman Empire.
If a A does not like B and wants him dead how can you trust any information you get from A about B?
Some link about the So-called Armenian genocide
http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin3/atrocity.htm
http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/armenian.htm
http://www.itsallpolitics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371028#371028
The Armenian genocide claimers have also some documents you can find on the web.But it is so obvious that they are made up. One example: They often refer to the word "Turkey" or "Turkish governmet" which did not exist in the 1915`s. Turkey was founded in 1923.
The calender is written like 1915, but the Ottomans were using lunar calendar.
As I said before the total population of Armenains(including the whole country, even the no war zones) does not add up to 1.5 million, the number of their claimed genocide victims. (Actually today I saw a site that claimed Turks have killed 5 million Armenians)
And here you can also find something on the Kurdish issue:
http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/ref.html
The below video shows a little portion of the Srebrenica Genocide. It is in Turkish but the pictures are enough to understnd what was going on.
I think the video has also been shown in the UN court as well
http://video.milliyet.com.tr/default.asp?kanal=1&id=4454&tarih=2007/02/27&get=27.02.2007
Just click on the video screen (BASLAT)
She sat up, staring with her nightsight at the outlines of the men around her. It filled in the cracks that had formed when she exploded, when shed fallen apart. She turned down the wide corridor that stretched past the arched entrance to the gardens. Nialdlye shook her head. Let it go for now, he soothed. Her gifts were not of the same caliber, as they were divinely enhanced. With a pang, Eyrhaen pictured Tykir. Rhae would work completely through her. Gods, what a horrible thought! Anything but admit she was wrong, even if she now knew she had been. Im sorry to ruin this for you too, but… Damn. I know youre with Nialdlye now. Would you let me go? Whimpering softly, she opened her mouth, but he went no further. She rolled her hips so his shaft rubbed her opening. She draped over Brevin, amazed anew by the sheer size of him. Barefoot and topless, she felt more naked than she had in a long time. She nodded, understanding the attraction from Brevins, Lanthans, and Tykirs points of view. But she needed to know one more thing. He growled, a pleasant rumble against her breasts.
Grateful, he wrapped his arms around his friend and buried his face in his neck. Salin told me that he was awake, but hes not come out of his suite. Lanthan saw her move. He didnt look up. Hands closed over her shoulders, distantly felt.
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